Ep 3 - Neil Schambra Stevens: Actionable Kindness and Its Enemies — Grounding Prompts, Words That Matter, and Unveiling Burnout

**Ben Culpin**
Welcome to Damn Kind Conversations. Today we're going to be talking to Neil Schambra Stevens. Neil is a coach for people who work in the creative industry. So strategists and creatives among others. Neil is looking to support people who are at a point in their career where they're not only looking for more purpose and meaning in the work that they do, but are also looking to support others in that process also.  The conversation is an open, wonderful dialogue between two people who are. bearing their souls. I'm very grateful for this conversation and I hope you enjoy it. Thank you.  Rather than ask you to introduce yourself, which can often generate an automated response. I will give you space to introduce yourself, but I'd also like to start with a couple of prompts.  Let's start with,  yeah. It's okay to It's absolutely okay to drink. You can service your basic needs as we go through this conversation.  So it's very early. It is 8. 30 in the morning.  We scheduled this to start at 8 in the morning. Normally I don't get out of bed until 8 in the morning.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Okay.

**Ben Culpin**
So this is a serious achievement, I appreciate the coffee.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Well done, Ben.

**Ben Culpin**
Could you, it's not about me, but... Could you maybe start by talking a little bit about your morning ritual and why it's important to you personally?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Sure.  First thing I'd say is I think that there is a "Ritual" pretty much a loaded word and there's lots things that I see that  having  a ritual and " "what's your ritual?" " What do you do every day?", puts pressure on people, I think. " Oh, I don't have, that, that routine". For me, I set my alarm at 5am  and I sometimes I snooze. I don't get up straight away. I try to, but sometimes I'm, I listen to myself, I listen to my body, whatever. And then what I do, my routine is to get up, and then I soak some oatmeal, some oats, and I get ready, and then I cycle to the Bos, Amsterdamse Bos, and I go for a swim. And I try and do that most mornings the exceptions are when it's really raining. Because cycling half an hour in the rain, swimming in cold water, and then putting wet clothes on, probably not a good idea.  But the journey to the Bos, the cycle there, and particularly the moments in the water, are just really special.  Because I find that when I wake up in the morning, I've got a bazillion ideas and having that time just to... do mental checklists, but then having just ideas flow in and out. It's a really important part of my day in my process. When you're in the water and particularly as we get into the winter months when it's really cold.  You have to focus on breathing and just you know the whole mindset thing of pushing the cold away and all the rest of it and then just embracing how that makes you feel and that's when some of the good stuff starts flowing in, so that's why I do it, and I look forward to that and as I always say, there's a hundred and one reasons not to do it, but you never regret a swim.

**Ben Culpin**
Yeah, I... What people can't see currently is that just off... the side of a camera, because we do film this interview as well, but most people will probably be listening to this, there's some drying swimming shorts on a radiator and a little towel.  It's just a beautiful little scene here of discipline and wholesome living.  Yeah, I've been this morning it was the water temperature was 15 degrees? And the air temperature

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
6.

**Ben Culpin**
And I'm there with my fellow, we don't, we say hello, so we don't know each other. But we embrace the moment and the conversation usually focuses around the temperature of the water. How cold

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
it? Oh, it's pretty cold.

**Ben Culpin**
is it? Oh, it's a beautiful sky. And that's enough, just to you connect, you you know why everybody's there.  You're not there for a chit chat and a coffee. It's like you come in, come in, you do the business

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
and you're get out, and

**Ben Culpin**
it's the opposite of that. It's very

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
calm and peaceful.

**Ben Culpin**
Yeah. yeah,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
there's

**Ben Culpin**
not a lot of drying space on the boat, so I have to be quite quite practical.  No, it's wonderful. I do it in, small batches.  It's a wonderful scene. So I have a couple more prompts and the idea behind this is just to pull out a few nuggets that help establish a foundation and essence to who you are. The next one, I'm not sure whether this will will generate the right response, but let's see.  I'm curious if you have a stone in your pocket?  A stone in my

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
pocket?

**Ben Culpin**
I remember one walk we took, you were like, I have this little pebble in my pocket and you rub your thumb against it.  Oh, okay.  Do you still have that?  I don't have it in my pocket, but it's on my desk.  There it is! There. it is. That is pretty close.  Could you talk about this pebble?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah.

**Ben Culpin**
So

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
I've...

**Ben Culpin**
Could you  also maybe describe  it for me.  please? Sure. It's a... black...

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
A sort

**Ben Culpin**
of matte oblong egg shaped stone. And I don't know what it's actually made of, in terms of well, it's volcanic or it's whatever. And I picked it up on a beach, I think it was in Croatia. Either Croatia, but I used to, I've spent a lot of time on beaches and walking on beaches.  And I see interesting stones

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
and things like that. I'm amazed that you remember this bit. And

**Ben Culpin**
what I really

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
like about it, and I don't know, it is

**Ben Culpin**
basically there's an indentation in it.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Which,

**Ben Culpin**
If you, guys were on video, I can, it just fits my thumb.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
And

**Ben Culpin**
when I'm sitting I just rub it

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
and

**Ben Culpin**
whenever I, there's certain practices that I do where I do visualization exercises with a client, I pick up the stone and it just helps me.  I don't know what it really does, but it's just comforting. The shape in the hand motion of just rubbing it, I just find it very calming and grounding and it's something natural.  think I like having natural things around as a reminder of. That we're we're guests on the planet, we don't, we think that we own it and we do, and we've done a really bad job of taking care

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
it,

**Ben Culpin**
of it, not to get all worthy, but just having natural things around us.  And again, that's one of the reasons why I swim in the morning as well, because you're in the middle of this lake. I just find it very grounding and comforting and reassuring. Don't always have it in my pocket. I think also being a parent kids give you stuff. Hey dad, I've got this, can I? And you you pick it up and you put it in your pocket and you keep it.  And sometimes, know, I've got a selection of little stones over there for my children.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Some

**Ben Culpin**
things you don't keep. Just, sorry guys You've been watching this.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
You,

**Ben Culpin**
at the end of the walk, you put it back on the path or

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah. It Remember

**Ben Culpin**
not that feather,  Dad? No, it flew away.  Reminds me of my nephews. They're like, oh, check out this stick. Can you hold onto this stick!  me? Yeah.  Yeah. It's, and the mother will be like, don't throw that away.  They will ask about it later.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah, Absolutely.

**Ben Culpin**
Three weeks later they'll be asking about that stick.  So what natural things do you have in your pocket?  Oof. I wouldn't say that I have natural things in my pocket, so I don't have any, but I do remember this anecdote you shared with me about the stone.  I think what I do take from what you're sharing, that I am doing more of late, is gathering artifacts that symbolize certain things  to me. For a while, I stopped doing that and I think... just a few months ago. I was having dinner with a very good friend And in Amsterdam, you have these people that go through a restaurant with a Polaroid camera and they ask if you want to take their photo.  And I think maybe for years I've just got into this rut and routine of saying no, I'm fine no, don't have cash, blah, blah, blah. But my friends say, oh yeah, let's do it yeah, great. So I have this wonderful little Polaroid photo of me and my friend that, it's probably the first artifact of late that I've put up in my newly renovated apartment.  It's quite sparse at the moment. So it's a moment when I'm starting to ground myself in my own space again.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Nice.

**Ben Culpin**
And how that is now starting to evolve  is...  I've started to gather items that friends are producing. So a couple of weeks ago I went to see a friend release a new EP and it was a wonderful, lovely experience. It's so nice to see your friends taking their passion seriously and to be just making something and putting it out there to share. And got him to sign a little poster of his EP, and that now sits proudly in my apartment.  So there is a few things, and I think they ground me to my friends, to my values, and to, yeah, to, to the simple things. Okay, I have another question, a little prompt for you, if I may. How's your cup this morning?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
There you go.

**Ben Culpin**
So should I probably explain about the cup first or should I just dive

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
straight in?

**Ben Culpin**
I wonder whether you can talk about your cup and explain the concept as you go.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
So

**Ben Culpin**
my cup this morning is I would say more than half full. It's pretty darn good today.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
And

**Ben Culpin**
basically the idea of your cup is

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
that

**Ben Culpin**
quite often in life people go, "Hey, how

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
are you?" "Great."  "How are you? Good."  And

**Ben Culpin**
that's it, It's nothing. And it's nice and it's an acknowledgement.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
But

**Ben Culpin**
if you were to turn around and say, "Hey Ben, how are you doing?" today? And you go, I'm having a, I'm having a shocker. It's a really awful. And you're just passing him in the street.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
You're like.

**Ben Culpin**
uh, that's a bit too much, or in the office or whatever. So what I encourage people to do is to, rather than describe how they

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
are,

**Ben Culpin**
to kick things off by saying, how big's your cup? How full's your cup? So every day you get a cup you first, you think about how big the cup is. I drink a lot of coffee.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
sometimes I have an espresso, sometimes I have about

**Ben Culpin**
I

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
big. And

**Ben Culpin**
then you get a certain amount of water every day that you use to

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
fill the cup.  And this is

**Ben Culpin**
all about you, so you know how much water you have to put in it. So you're feeling like I'm feeling really full, I'm feeling really good, or like I'm feeling low energy or whatever.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
So you

**Ben Culpin**
would describe that to the

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
person

**Ben Culpin**
and say my cup is, it's about average and I've got about, it's about half full.  And then you know how someone's

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
doing. If their

**Ben Culpin**
cup is full, they've got a lot of energy. But if it's small, and not a lot of water in their cup, you think okay. That's an indication how I might lean into the conversation in

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
different  way.

**Ben Culpin**
So it's a way of navigating some of the

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
shortcomings

**Ben Culpin**
that we have in society generally of communication. And connecting with someone a little deeper, I think. And a better understanding.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
And

**Ben Culpin**
you might somebody might, my small, my cup is small, and you go,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
okay,

**Ben Culpin**
all right,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
I gotcha.

**Ben Culpin**
And then you know without them having to really open up and explain. Maybe they don't have the time to explain

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
how they're really feeling or

**Ben Culpin**
why they're feeling that

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
way.

**Ben Culpin**
But it's reciprocal because then you've said to you, I'm in a good place or I'm in a less than good place. And then we both know where we are. And obviously

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
the ritual

**Ben Culpin**
is then saying, I'll say to you, Ben, how's your cup? So how's your cup  Haha  No, how's your cup today,  Yeah. I'm going to think about it. My cup is good. It's  good. Mm.  It is,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
a

**Ben Culpin**
fair sized cup. A lot like the one that's sitting in front of me with the coffee that you made for me.  Not a huge, double handed, wide opening mug, but a neat,  It's put together mug that I can hold in one hand.  It's not overbearing. It is well weighted.  And, shows signs of having content that has been made with love. I really like that, Let's call it a tool that you've described because it's I didn't think about it in terms of sharing it with somebody else.  I thought about it in terms of a way to assess how you really are  because speaking from experience, I can wake up in the morning and almost default say, Oh, I'm tired. I'm not good. It's an unfortunate track in my mind that sometimes plays out and I can go to the gym or maybe you go to for a swim.  There's ways to knock yourself out it.  of it. But there's also, in this instance, this tool where you can pause, visualize something. And then it's like a reality  check.  Yeah.  That's a really good point you make, because I, i, use it as a conversational tool.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
But

**Ben Culpin**
if you were on your own, when you first woke up, and think, Hey, or when you get going a little bit. How is my cup today?  I you use some lovely adjectives like, you know, it's not overbearing, and well weighted, and all this sort of stuff.  And

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
without

**Ben Culpin**
going into too depth and detail whatever,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
I use that

**Ben Culpin**
the tool in a particular situation. Last year when sadly my mother was, deteriorating and and it was a sort of an end of life situation.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
And I was there with my two older  sisters.  And

**Ben Culpin**
rather than saying, how are you?  How are you doing? You're

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
like,

**Ben Culpin**
I'm  awful.  It's awful. But there were varying degrees of that. So as a tool of saying, "how's your cup

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
today?"

**Ben Culpin**
We don't have to keep saying like, how are you feeling? How are you feeling right

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
now? And

**Ben Culpin**
that really, it really helped us. And it was quite a

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
long

**Ben Culpin**
of time that we had to go through that.  So rather than repeating that  thing,  you just reference it and it just  helps. And

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
I

**Ben Culpin**
still get texts from, my sisters are in the UK and we text regularly, but it's a question, of how's your cup?  And it's a nice little shorthand and very comforting and reassuring. it, brings you into the conversation in a different way, which I think is, again, is a tool when there's so many, you mentioned rituals before, but there's so many rituals that we have in conversation today that Oh mate, smashed it, nailed it,  crushed

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
it.

**Ben Culpin**
All that stuff. You're like, great. Thanks for the enthusiasm. But actually if I'm not opposed to social media at all, but going in and going, that's exciting news. Well done. Good  for you or whatever. That might be a different way of saying  crushed  it

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
It or

**Ben Culpin**
nailed it or whatever your, your announcement is. I'm very keen on, we'll probably get into it words, the use of words and the impact that words have. And yeah, if ever I use the expression, smashed it on LinkedIn, then please feel free to call  I'll . I would like to pivot to something around words. I have a book in front of  me.  And. If you would indulge me, I would like to read something from this  book.  Would that be okay?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Do  Do you know,

**Ben Culpin**
nobody's

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
only just me.

**Ben Culpin**
Nobody's ever  done that, so I'd love Okay. you're very  good  I'm going to read something from a book. It's titled, "Suitable Gifts".

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Oh.

**Ben Culpin**
When  I'm old, please do not bring me sweets.  Soft ones, my dears, in deference to my teeth,  Or  pale pink soap, or flasks of tepid scent,  Not  even slippers, gentle to slow feet.  Bring  me berries from some rampant hedge, Or beech leaves, shrieking the return of spring,  Lupines aflame  aflame with rain, or damp, dark moss, Cloistered in woods and smelling of pines.  Keep your  slim rosebuds, lovely as they are, But bring me clover, cowslips, and campion, And failing all, a handful of wet  earth,  That I may breathe its wholeness and be free.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah.

**Ben Culpin**
This is from a book that you wrote, but it's actually a sample of  your mother's writing.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
It is.

**Ben Culpin**
Could  you  were mentioning before that your words are important to you.  Yeah.  Could you talk a little bit about your mother and your impetus to write a book that's clear now to people listening.  Neil  has written a book and just recently released it, which we'll talk about maybe a bit more.  But I loved this I love the book as well, but I loved this particular excerpt because it really grounded me in the present moment. And the words were very clear and descriptive and it just made me smile.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah.  It's

**Ben Culpin**
you caught me off guard a little  bit

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
with that.  with that. ha Ha.

**Ben Culpin**
So, Yes, that is one of my mother's

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
poems.

**Ben Culpin**
She  wrote, her name was Jean Marion Stephens. that was her published

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
, author's author's name.

**Ben Culpin**
And as well as being, my  mum,  and  mum to my two older sisters as well. She was a poet and  a  writer.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
And She,

**Ben Culpin**
poetry was, and words were her first,  one  of her, one of her first loves. She wrote about nature,  and she wrote about faith, and she wrote about family. Those were her real values that were super important to  her.  And

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
she

**Ben Culpin**
grew up in Hertfordshire, you know, a place called Boxmoor, which is where  I  grew  up,  and

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
She

**Ben Culpin**
lived, there was nature in close proximity, and she used to wander on the, um, the

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
the

**Ben Culpin**
common and the moors and things around that, and it was a real inspiration for her. And at 16 she wrote a short story and she submitted  it.  And  it was She won this  competition and the, the prize  for winning  was that you got membership of the Society of Women's Writers and Journalists,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
which  is an international organization, it's quite a significant  one.  And so that started her membership of the SWWJ, as it was known in our  house.  She then went on to be a member for close to 75 years.  And  she's the longest, was the longest serving  member of the Society of Women's Welfare. And she ended up being the vice  president  of  it.  And poetry and writing and words, we, as a child, you didn't, you just, it was mumbles what was the right word?  And, She used to get quite cross at the radio when people weren't using words in the right way. And She was also an English teacher and things, so grammar was really important. And she was a great letter writer  and  typewriter  all the rest of it.  And she passed away on March the 22nd  last year, 2022.

**Ben Culpin**
And  the date is significant because it  is... World Poetry  Day. So she died on World Poetry  Day,  which  at the  time, I remember, my sisters and I gave her some real sort of, cheery, teary comfort and we were like, Oh my God, of course she died on World Poetry Day, you know. and then March 22nd is World Poetry Day every year.  So it's not like it's the third Tuesday of March whatever. it is, every year. So it's a constant reminder.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
And that  was at the time we've gone through I went through three, three bereavements, family bereavements in  six months.

**Ben Culpin**
And the impact that had on me was to really, as you can probably imagine, think about life and what you're doing and the values and so I tinkered around the edges of

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
putting

**Ben Culpin**
words together whatever.  And that was the emphasis. I was like, you know what? I'm going to write a book.  I'm going to write a book and so the book is dedicated to my mum and it's dedicated to my two children as well who are 13 and 15 and why it's dedicated to those three important people in my life is like I'm in the middle so I've got my mum's legacy and by no means am I comparing myself to her words and those beautiful words that that you read

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
but to my children

**Ben Culpin**
as well, so that 13, 15, when they come into the workplace and they in the next, what, 5, 10 years, whatever

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
it is,

**Ben Culpin**
that they have certain values in their approach to work and what's important to them Um, is well established and well

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
grounded.  I change

**Ben Culpin**
work culture,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
yeah,

**Ben Culpin**
I mean I can do my bit, but that's my intention, that's my mission to, to really try and change that. And that's why the book is dedicated to them, and to my

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
mom,

**Ben Culpin**
and why that's particularly poignant is that I read that on my  mom's Thanksgiving service.  Did  Did you? Yeah.  So the last line about wet earth and set me free is particularly poignant

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
for  me.  me

**Ben Culpin**
It really grounded  me. That's what triggered

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
me.

**Ben Culpin**
I've read it so many times, but in that moment,  yeah,  it's it's the words. We all read someone else's poetry, my sisters and

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
and it

**Ben Culpin**
just the right thing

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
do.

**Ben Culpin**
I don't want to overstep my bounds, but I will ask the question. I'm sure you've said everything you wanted to say to your mother, but if you could say anything to her now, what would you say?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
That's a really good question.

**Ben Culpin**
She probably  knows,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
but

**Ben Culpin**
I would probably say, Mom, I've just published

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
book and

**Ben Culpin**
she'd probably say something calm well done.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
She

**Ben Culpin**
was a very calm, gentle soul, but

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
yeah,

**Ben Culpin**
that would probably

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
be  it.

**Ben Culpin**
So on that, I feel like we've, I wanted to just start this conversation by, rather than saying, Hey, Neil, introduce yourself, tell us about your book, a couple of things, because we know each other, we have what we call the Baked Goods Research Program going on.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Are Are we

**Ben Culpin**
going to share that with the world? my

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Well,

**Ben Culpin**
I mean... I thought that was our For anyone listening, Neil and I... Regularly meet up to, I think this is my sneaky way of getting a little bit of free coaching, but actually what we're really doing is purveying the different

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
cinnamon

**Ben Culpin**
bun options that exist within the city.  I'm just wanting to pull out some things from time, because we've had some really lovely conversations over the time, and I'm really hoping that this conversation will stay true to the conversations we have in private.  Done tastefully, of course, but I'd love it if you could introduce yourself now, please

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Sure

**Ben Culpin**
So my full name is

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Schambra

**Ben Culpin**
Stevens. And I'm originally from the

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
UK. But

**Ben Culpin**
I haven't actually lived lived there for, phew, over 20 years.  And, I've lived in Amsterdam, I've lived in Raleigh, North Carolina, I've lived in Italy, worked in switzerland. And why I share those experiences is that I've moved around for for life and for work. And my first part

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
of my

**Ben Culpin**
working journey was very much in working for brands and in marketing. Work for particularly sportswear brands, I've worked for Nike Inc, for Converse, for Vans

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Asics,

**Ben Culpin**
Polaroid, Lenovo,  and yeah, that's given me an opportunity to get grounded in in kind of corporate culture and brand culture, I've worked on the agency side, I've worked on the brand side, I've worked on the client side. And that gave me an opportunity to, a few years ago, I realized that I'm really interested in people. Um, the teams that I've worked with, know, I've worked with teams in various sciences, but it's actually the people that really fascinate me in terms  of, enabling people to, it's a dreadful expression, reach their full potential, find their voice, all those wonderful kind of cliches and things. But now, so I'm a, former CMO turned coach and I coach a very specific group of people, which is

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
within

**Ben Culpin**
the middle of organisation or agencies and brands, I'm interested in those people who are

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
becoming

**Ben Culpin**
a leader for the first time. And who go from being like a generalist to, or a specialist, to being a generalist. And they go from, designing and creating things to managing people and meetings. And all of a sudden that's a completely different thing.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
skill set.

**Ben Culpin**
So I work with creatives, strategists, and marketing folks.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
folks. And I'm based here in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands. But

**Ben Culpin**
I work online, pretty much.  This is one of the few sort of in person conversations that I  have.  And, so yeah, my clients are here, they're in the UK, they're  in the US.  And You know, my company coaching consultancy is Mercury  Jam  Coaching. And yeah, I've been doing this for a few years. And  it's the sort of the four values that I have for the agency are kindness, gratitude,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
resilience,

**Ben Culpin**
and momentum. And they come from various sort of personal experiences that I've had in the last few years. the lessons that

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
I  learnt

**Ben Culpin**
from those experiences that I put back into my coaching programs and

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
in

**Ben Culpin**
trying to encourage people to rethink

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
and reframe

**Ben Culpin**
reframe their sort of relationship with work and their working journey is

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
important, but

**Ben Culpin**
it ain't be all and end all of everything.  Sure, you've got to put Bread and cheese on the table, as I always  say, but how you do that

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
and and the value

**Ben Culpin**
and the attention that you give to work. I think there's an opportunity to re look at that that, particularly with everything that's happened in the world

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
in post pandemic or during the pandemic.

**Ben Culpin**
So I  just have your bio here and there's a couple of words I also want to pull out that I thought were important. You talked about these middle level group of people, creative strategists, rising talent. But I also have heard you say before, when you talk about kindness, it's about helping people to be seen, heard and valued. Could you talk about those choices of words that you used? . And what that's about?  Kindness is a value that I grew up with, it's something that my

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
parents parents

**Ben Culpin**
demonstrated and talked about and so it's just an instinctive thing, and there are lots of sort of perceptions around kindness, and I think some people

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
think it's quite,

**Ben Culpin**
quite, soft, quite fluffy, quite and particularly when it comes

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
to business. And

**Ben Culpin**
I thought about the impact that kindness has on somebody when you have a kind act, when you are intentional towards somebody it's not about you. It's not about. The giver. It's about the receiver, per se.  And how

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
that, a small ,

**Ben Culpin**
action, words, whatever it is, can change the course of somebody's day. And without being too grandiose, it can change

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
their life.

**Ben Culpin**
It really can. The choices, the confidence it gives them, the self belief, whatever it might be. And I looked at those words, and then what are the three things that kindness does? And it enables you to

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
be  seen.

**Ben Culpin**
I see  you,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Ben.

**Ben Culpin**
And then, I hear what you say.  I hear

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
in your words.

**Ben Culpin**
And then, it creates that interaction, creates a value to

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
it.  And...  I invite anybody listening or watching this to, when you're next engaging with someone  like,  I don't know, sitting down for a coffee or ordering somebody a drink or whatever it is and say to them, instead of saying, how are you?  And they go, great. And this isn't like another cup thing. Say how how are you doing today? Or how's your day? How's your day started? And watch  what  happens.

**Ben Culpin**
And you listen to their, and listening to really kind of key things. you're listening to their  response  and see

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
what  happens.  A Couple  of  prompts,

**Ben Culpin**
Depending on the master of  prompts.  And you just see the difference

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
that  makes.

**Ben Culpin**
And it's a genuine thing, you read the situation and somebody's yeah,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
maybe it's they

**Ben Culpin**
don't have time for this interaction or whatever. But ask that, and people will stop and pause.  And  they're

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
like,

**Ben Culpin**
you've actually asked me a question. I'm like, yeah, because I really

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
want  to  know.

**Ben Culpin**
Can I share a personal example?  I  was thinking about  this idea of  this idea of actionable kindness recently. And as I was cycling here this morning, I was trying to think of recent events where I've witnessed this to make it more tangible. And three days ago, I was sitting in the sauna with two other people, a man and a woman.  And the man was just making all kinds of sighing noises. I thought he was unwell. So he's like really suffering. Oh!  And  I didn't want to ask him on the spot, okay. But he ended up leaving and but it stuck with me. I was thinking why is it going on with this guy? But his friend was still there And managed to muster up the courage because it's, you're in towels, you're naked, also talking to a woman don't want her to misunderstand what's going on here. I just said to her, is your friend okay? She went, oh, he's fine. He just has a different aptitude for these things. And,  and two  things were amazing about this. First of all. Her choice of words, aptitude, it was so gentle and forgiving and loving,  but  what followed was just a sort of like a breaking of the silence and she just started talking. We had a conversation

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Okay.

**Ben Culpin**
And  for me that felt like a really good example. Very light version of actionable kindness, where you act on thoughts of concern and compassion and curiosity.  Yeah. And how that can lower the barriers and the walls that we put up and lead to a wonderful conversation and new  discoveries.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
yeah.  I think it's something that  curiosity  is a good word. I like that. And aptitude I think are brilliant. Where,  and it's not just, it's not just giving people time and attention just for the  of it.  Because if ask  the question and then you don't listen to their response and you just oh, that's great, it, it devalues the,  the experience.  But to give you a tangible example,  when  when I was working in  Switzerland,  I used to commute in from Italy, which sounds.  Far more glamorous than it actually is. I was on the Swiss Italian border. Italian Swiss  border.  And I had to get in early to beat the traffic because I'm crossing the border and all the rest of it. And then, in your mind you might have like the opening sequence of the Italian job and I'm driving  a red  Ferrari.  Nah, I'm stuck behind an oil tanker, an hour in the  morning. but I  used to get  early.

**Ben Culpin**
And I was always the first, usually  the  first one in  the  office. And  I knew,  as my team  were coming in  I knew,  I paid attention  to, the first one in was was Nelson  and  he got

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
the

**Ben Culpin**
well, he  got  the  train  in  and then there was Daniel who came on he

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
on his car

**Ben Culpin**
and gradually, one by one, I would stop and I would get up and  say, hey, how's, you're a little bit late. Not to check in on them ah, the trains are running Or, a little bit late or whatever  it  was.  And I'm like, ah, have you had a coffee yet? I knew little bits of their little nuggets of their life  and their story.  Another guy's Oh, how's things?  Yeah, I was up all night with my daughter or whatever. And  it just grounds people.  And after all, I knew the first, between five and ten people arriving in the office, I would actually have some interaction with them. A, they see  me and  A,  know, I had a team of 42 people,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
so  it  would  be  hard,  not always  practical to say hello to 42 people every day because they're interacting with all the rest of it.  But I would often, often I would get out my office and go and just sit with  people during the day at, if there was spare desk or whatever because it was a big sort of  open  plan  office.  And  be like, how are you doing? What's going on today? Then how's your day started?  just to give that present a, because I was in an office and there was a wall and there was a glass door, but you  couldn't  see me  in there. And so I used to just go and sit and just talk  chat and,  or, know come out and go right top clock who's going for  lunch  and I'd go and I'd spend time with people.  And I think feeling that  presence, making people feel seen,  heard and  valued.  So really, know, not to say kindness costs nothing, but  it means everything,  I was at your book launch a couple of days ago, and there was a moment when everyone was asking questions, and there was a woman in the audience who asked a lovely question, which I want to steal. She has to be a strategist, for sure. I think her name was Marlijn. She was the one asked the question.  She said, What is the enemy of kindness?  Karlijn Okay, we're credit.  Yeah. Sorry, Karlijn. I only met you in a moment,  if you're listening to this.  I would love to hear your answer to that again. It was a,  it's a, great question. And  I  think that  and  I'm going to steal somebody's answer as well.  I think, who was it, somebody said that  they  thought  thoughtfulness. Or  unthoughtfulness. Being  unthoughtful was the enemy of kindness where  you're just  like belligerent and all the  rest of it. To be honest and true to what I said the other day was, I think that if you relate it to  workplace that the lack of people need to feel safe and secure when they  come to  work.  By that I mean  that  people feel that you've got  their back,  that they're not going to get dinged for asking a question that's, not right or whatever. To create that open space, that open forum for dialogue, know, I you need innovation  without  recrimination.  Can we try  this?  Can we do this? So I  think very much toxic cultures, to give it  a  label  are the enemy of kindness and I think the impact  that  has  on individuals, on the overall efficiency, productivity of a business and the focus and the attention  is  put.  I think that people can find that quite demoralizing. And I would say  that's...  did she say it was the enemy of kindness or the  opposite?

**Ben Culpin**
It's  the  enemy.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
The enemy,  Yeah, I  think  that.  And I  think just,  probably actually,  the opposite of that,  let's use my words.  Is not being seen, not being heard, and not  being valued.  And  those ingredients, I think, probably add up to a  toxic  culture.

**Ben Culpin**
I really zoomed in on connected to this idea  of trust.  And trust in the workplace  is  trust in the business environment.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah.

**Ben Culpin**
At  many different levels. Even. Myself speaking as a freelancer, building longstanding trust with a client or an agency is super important  to me.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah,  to build on that, I would say  that  there's a fundamental, which often gets overlooked  is  that  people  work  for people.  And  sure,  we can have automation and we can have, tech and AI  and all the rest  of  it.  But  there's still a lot of exchange between individuals, between departments,  between  teams.  Speaking as a marketeer, I would always encourage my team to go and sit with operations  and supply  chain  to understand what their world  was like.  because, say, you're launching a  new  product  and it's going to show up in a store or online or wherever  it  is, whole bunch of people who are helping getting that product  made,  getting it shipped, getting all  those  things. It's like the tip of the iceberg. We think, oh, the brand, is cool and  shiny.  But it's four fifths of the brand is the iceberg. It's  what  you don't  see.  And  If you're not working, if you're not connected, if you don't have that interaction  and  trust,  it isn't going to  happen,  I do think that organizations and brands are like little ecosystems.  Everybody  has a  part  to play.  And  you've got to know what your role is, what  your value  is  within  that. And everybody contributes something from,  the CEO to  to,  know, to  the receptionist. I'm not diminishing receptionists at all. It's a beautiful story  about,  I think it was in the U.S.  where end of the year, this is pre  sort  of economic times that we're  in now,  where the receptionist got this huge bonus.  People  like,  why  so and they quote, all they do is meet and greet. And I'm like, yeah, that's the first thing people see when they walk in our office and the value that  person has. They're worth  ten times  this, so I use, I think the value of seeing every individual within an organization and understanding  that they're contributing  and also that individual, giving that individual a sense of worth  as well.  Oh, I'm just this no, you're not. You're playing a part. You're really  contributing.

**Ben Culpin**
As I'm listening to what you're saying, in the context of business, I also feel like another other enemy of kindness is urgency,  in  the sense that  it is very hard to give out kindness when one is feeling rushed or depleted.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
So  you've used  three words, urgency, rushed and depleted.  Within to focus on  urgency,  right?  That's  probably.  the,  stick with that  because,  Hey  Ben, we've got to get this out by  the  end of  the week,  for  example. That's urgency  if everybody, because I'm going to  I would  actually  challenge  that, that the, it is urgency is the end of kindness when you  don't  have  kindness in  place.  If for example, that you're working on a particular assignment project, whatever it might be, there's always deadlines  in  business.  What is my role? What is the priority? What are we trying to  with that?  If  you know  those things  up  front,  you can make those personal choices to go, okay,  I've got,  three tasks today, but I need to focus on this one.  you don't have  to check  in  somebody  because you've explained it. It's clear, it's simple, it's, this is we're all,  kindess  aligns people. It puts you in, in, in literally and metaphorically you're all facing  the same way  so that you don't need to check in and I don't need to go I've got these three things.  Which should I do first? No,  I've  that.  And then everybody is  aligned  to that.  And  the, it's one of the things with mercury jam the name where that comes from. It's about working with when there is this speed and this urgency  in business.  That you do it in a kindly fashion where everybody has an understanding of what their contribution is.  And they're not going to be dinged if like, oh, I'm going to do this before  I do that.  And  I  think  it  works on a macro level and it works on a micro level. Is it hard to implement? Absolutely. But it has to  start somewhere.  And it has to  be grounded in very much into the organisation. It's not a manifesto on a wall, it's not be kind on a mug it's actually people instinctively know  what it  is.  yeah, so I would challenge that, I'd push back  a  little bit on that. No, that's good.  Yes,  urgency  when there's an absence  of kindness  and  clarity.

**Ben Culpin**
And I'd also add individual  individual  and collective sense  of purpose.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah,  because people are, do get rushed and they do  get completed  and depleted.  and  I think  yeah, having that understanding of where people are in their moment, going back to the cup and, the energy  levels and,  yeah.

**Ben Culpin**
So I have a question here, which I wrote a few months ago and I'll update it after I've asked it in its original form. Is kindness good or a hindrance?  When should we engage it? And when do other emotions serve us better?  I think  what I'm actually wanting to ask you here is when could kindness ever be a hindrance? If you're not too careful  and  you're a kind soul,  You can  get walked all over.  And actually, I think I read something recently that said, If you're lying down, you're going to get walked on.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
People can only walk all over you when you're walking, lying down.,

**Ben Culpin**
Thank you. I would,  Yeah,  there's just, There's something here I'd like to discuss around, boundaries and appropriate moments to engage --it or to consider what else should be in the toolbox.  Should it not be sufficient.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Okay how I would respond to that is I think you're alluding  to it is kindness like this constant.  Is it an  always on kind of  thing?  Am I right?  There's something around that. Yeah.  But I think what it feels like, what it sounds like is there's, there's a huge difference between being nice and  being kind.

**Ben Culpin**
Would you explain the difference, please?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Niceness is there's a, it's a level of courtesy, there's a level of  respect. And,  but  in certain situations, it's quite superficial. it's just, I'm being nice. I I was just being nice to them. How many times do  you  hear that?  And I  think that's something that, sure, be respectful.  We  need,  we need to  be  courteous  and respectful now more than ever  one  another.  But being kind, kindness is  action,  right? It's something that you do in  your words, in  deeds.  It's a it's a  something that  is,  is a physical ,  . Manifestation.  It's a verbal  manifestation.  And so if choose, it's because I believe that it is a mindset  that  you  have.  It's  always there,  Right.  And  I think in certain  situations that.  Again, context  is  everything,  but in certain situations, the  kind  thing  for people is to be really clear and open and direct and tell people in a calm  way  that this is how you  made  me  feel,  this is how I feel about  this  situation.  And it's  putting a  like,  I feel this I feel happy, I feel frustrated, which is very different  from, I'm  frustrated, I'm happy, labeling the emotion, I feel this,  I  feel  that,  really helps, and again, if you, if kindness is a constant drumbeat,  drumbeat,  there are  situ, it's applicable  in.  Pretty much all situations, I  would say,  I'll put  it out there  that when you're working with someone at  the beginning  of their journey, and if sadly, situation where  have to  let somebody go, if you let them go with kindness and explain  and  help  all of the rest.  I'll give  you a great example during the pandemic and when,  you know,  hospitality  off,  travel and hospitality fell off a cliff in everyone stopped travelling and all  rest  of it.  Brian Chesky from Airbnb, CEO of Airbnb. He  to his, the  whole organisation. Every week for the first, I think, six or seven weeks the, probably  more.  And  it's still online and there's this brilliant letter from Brian Chesky to the whole  organisation.  And  he explains  the  decisions and the choices that they are going to have to  to make.

**Ben Culpin**
And the way that he  does

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
that,  and  is done,  I would say, with real kindness. He's impacting  thousands  of people's  lives,  Okay.  But,  he  he  does it in such  a way  that you yeah, I mean it's a shitty situation. unprecedented  and  all the rest  of it, but he,  the foundation  of Airbnb  is be  a  host,  He was being the host, like he had people in his massive, in, his house.  house meaning  the organisation.  And he  was treating all those people  kindly.  Even though he was impacting and changing  their  He  was,  in the U. S. he was helping with health care. There were programs to help people transition into other jobs and recruitment. They went over uh, over and  above  at  time compared to some  pretty  brutal examples of people going,  sorry, you're out  and, all the rest of  So, I  think that's an example where  you can use  kindness in a difficult situation, Tragic situation.

**Ben Culpin**
I'm also hearing something else, which is, have you read a book called Nonviolent  Communication?  Nonviolent, I  have not.  By Marshall Rosenberg, I think is the name. It's  It's  like a little branch out of what you're saying here, which is just about delivery of the message.  And it's, non violent communication consists of, some sort of, there's a framework. Touch upon how you feel, how it made you, your personal experience, and an observation rather than a judgment on the other. It's a great book. Recommend it to you. Yeah.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah. I really  feel that,  if you are very calm and  considered, and, and and, and in control, because there's  certain  things  that only you can control,  right?  And if you give up your power, if you give up your control to somebody else,  and  let  that situation impact  you.  Um,  It  takes  your  energy  away, and you, how you misinterpret situations.  And there's something that I work, when I work with my clients, there's a thing about how situations  are neutral  and  how there's a stage where you  go  from  there's a, you have a  your thought, your  emotion  and  action  And  it  triggers and it's the cognitive process  it kicks in.  So you think  about something, Um, I'm reacting to a situation and say it's a less than you feel  something  that  It's a less  positive situation. So you think about it.  Then you put  emotion to it Then you put an action to  it.  So it's three steps away from the original thing You have no idea  what that  person  the  intention of but it's how you make them feel and the energy and the power that you Give  up  in  that moment  a five second  rule.  It's  the  other  one to  you know toast falling on  the floor  things like that  and  It's  a,  but it's a, it's also a very powerful tool to bring it  to yourself  and like what's in  my  control,  out of my control  about  being present  about  not  letting go of your energy, which I think is  really important  these days.

**Ben Culpin**
Yeah, there's  question I have in my little notebook around what's your empowered move? And I like what you're saying here about this side. You're saying. I can see you frowning. We'll get to my, I'll expand on my  answer in  a second.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
I have  something,  yeah.

**Ben Culpin**
But this, it's connected to what you said, giving up your power.  Or where one, where it can leak out almost. Yeah. Through  undesirable behaviours  and actions and circumstances. And...  The  question I have is, what is your empowered move  So,  of  late.  Do  you understand  also  the question?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
I do,  but what I'm, thinking of, and again  it's a very,  just to share a  very  personal  thing,  when you're, something that we all have to be aware of when you're talking about non  verbal  communication,  okay?  Because when  I  was  frowning, I  know if you have  responded or made any assumptions  about that,  years ago  I  was  a meeting,  And  I  was sitting  there, and I was, it was a group meeting, I don't know, 10, 20 people  there.  And somebody  said to me, because I was, you your hand to  a question. And they went, Neil,  you  have  your  thinking face  on.  And  I  was like,  what  the hell  is  my  thinking face?  I don't,  you  don't  know  me that  well.  So just to clarify,  when  you  were  frowning,  right?  If you were making an assumption, that  was my  face.  face.

**Ben Culpin**
Yeah, I immediately had an action  which  was...

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Oh,  I've triggered... You  tell  me  what you thinking.

**Ben Culpin**
Yeah.  Oh, he disagrees. Oh, I'm breaking the flow of the conversation. Things are going to slow down. ha.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
That's  what I wanted to say because I have  no idea what this, the top half of  my  head  is  right now.  It's an  involuntary reaction  like because that's how I think.  I frown  a little bit.  I would say  mean I  would  build  on in terms of the move or the tool is really  encourage people  to  People say, Oh, don't overreact. Don't take it personally.  All  the wrong  things to say.  But if  you yourself  think about, okay, this situation  is neutral.  It's neutral. It's neutral.  How am I responding  to  it?  Just  take words, take it on face  value. Don't go. well, Ben  was trying  to catch me  out, or Ben  was  trying to do this, like Ben wasn't trying to do anything, he  was just  sharing something.  How I receive that information, what  I  do  with it,  it's on  me  and it's  up  here,  right?  The mind  is  a powerful  thing and we can,  we  have the ability and the gift  to  manage  our mood  and our emotion.  And  when.  When  we  are going back to, speed and the urgency thing and the  pressure and  all the  rest of it,  someone saying, oh,  can  you  this?  And your response is, why are they  me to  do  that?  They know  how busy  I am.  Do they?  Do they  literally know  how  busy  you  are?  I  would question that.  that.  And  they might be aware that you're working on this project, but in that moment  they don't know.  Exactly.  Because being busy, it's your  life.  You  might  have  your  work thing,  but you  might have  you've got to go to  a  dental appointment, you've  got to meet somebody after work, you've got to I don't know, go get groceries, a childcare, whatever it is.  That's  life.  And  that person asking that  question has  idea  what's going on.  So  always  it  back to

**Ben Culpin**
you.  Bring  it  back  into your  control.  And  just go,  okay,  I'm  mutual.  it neutral.  And  if you do  go on that journey, which we do many  times  a day,  the thought, the emotion, the action, before you get  to  the,  go  through  the process,  but  then  just pause.  Yeah,  okay,  bring  it  back  to  me.  Thank you for answering the how  as  well.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Oh, you're such a strategist.

**Ben Culpin**
Okay so...  I don't want to go  down  in energy because I feel like we are enjoying a lovely little walk up the hill here. But I do want to Take a moment to see where this goes. Could you talk to me about the four major stress triggers in life, your personal experience with them, how you've navigated it, and what your core piece of advice would be to anyone marching through the murk of a  similar suffering.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Marching through  the murk?  Words  Ben,  I love that.  sure.  what  are the It is  losing a  job,  bereavement,  uh, marriage or  divorce, and  house.  And  I experienced  all four  of those in  the  space of six  to  twelve months  going  into  the  pandemic.  And  at  the time,  very much in the sort of the eye of the storm,  wasn't really  aware  of  one  a job happened  in  in the summer.  My father passed away in the September. There's  a whole  thing that sort of  triggered around  time.  And. I think the first thing that you, that I would take out from that is the importance of the resilience and  the momentum,  think these situations  are  happening.  And how you can actually manage them in the moment  and  and just,  my  dad  always used  say,  you just got  to keep going,  boy, you just  to keep going.  And it might sound a little trite, but I'd be like, yeah, I've got to,  I've got  to  keep going.  And. Whilst it was a desperately  sad  time, looking back, it  was actually, I say, sometimes everything has  to completely  fall apart and completely unravel to find out where you're truly meant to be.  And let me build  on  that because  when my father passed  away  at his Thanksgiving  He we had, we invited, a lot  people from his  former work colleagues and organizations and  things that  he used  to  for.  And  they,  one of  the lovely  sort of condolences and messages that we have is someone  said, Oh, your  father  always  came  to work  joy.  He was  always,  and  again, it wasn't like a flippant thing and it's like everything's he  was a deep thinker  and things troubled  him  at  times.  But,  this  person, this  complete stranger was like, oh  yeah,  your  dad  always  to work with  joy.  And  to this day it was just,  one  of  the,  one of the kindest people  we've  worked with.  And that was the trigger for me, because at the time, having lost  job,  was thinking what's next? What do I want to do? And  was,  I was searching around, and I knew that I was gravitating more towards working with people, as in being a coach, or consultant,  whatever  was.  But that was the tipping point people should come to work with  joy,  every  day.  And they should  find  joy  in  their  life.  And that was the catalyst for  me  to  start.  Mercury Jam, to start  consultancy  and values of the company are kindness,  gratitude,  resilience and momentum. And I  think  if  you  those  ingredients,  and you call on them different points of going  back to, not all happy clappy, my energy level isn't always high.  Sometimes  it's  low.  know, human like anybody else  and I  think  that's  that  was the  know, the take out from  experience  And  it  it  all made  sense and  You need to keep moving. I say about start small start  simple  just  start  Because  if you're standing still it's  really hard  to kind of make  a change  It's really hard  to make a  difference  and  it's just these  little  Small incremental things that  you  can  do.  To make a  difference.  And  then  you  find  the  thing that, you  want  to be  doing  or  you  to,  that gives you  joy,  I would say. What

**Ben Culpin**
What if you  can't  I, I, I agree with everything you just said. I think that you do, one has to keep going, but I think that in times of suffering it can get  tricky.  So I'm just wanting to slow  this down, this  bit,  because when we look back at our stories that we have about our own  journey,  it's very easy to see the linear, ah your father died and he had this, it was this wonderful example, and I had this aha, your weaker moment, but that, if you zoom in just a bit further.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Sure,  quite happy to go a  little deeper to share that from my own experience  in the  mid  nineties,  that I had a  burnout,  a  work  related burnout.  And  I  also have to say that I think  burnout has it, burnout's the acceptable  word  for  depression,  because that's  what  it is.  It's  like, it's much easier  to say, oh,  he's  on burnout  leave, or they've  gone  on burnout  leave, versus  saying they're  And to break  it down a  little  bit  one of the things that triggers,  let's  call  it  is  a  chemical imbalance  it's a lack of serotonin, and it's at the, the back of your neck  here.  Something  physically, chemically  is happening  in So saying  to somebody,  Oh, you just got to keep going.  When they can't even get out of bed, which  was that I had on occasions, I'd come home  from  work  on  a  I'd go to bed and I  wouldn't  get up  till  Sunday,  Oh,  keep  going. Do  that. And you're like, really?  No  thanks.  And I think in that moment you you need, there are those times when you  if keeping going  is  just,  I  don't  overly dramatic just  keeping  alive, Just  Just doing  it  and  knowing that  you  can.  Sadly, some people don't get through it.  I  have  to  acknowledge  that.  But to  just  be  ticking over,  and understanding that it's a  really  dark  place,  but you can,  the  lightness  will  come and  just, I it self  belief.  And  some people don't  believe that,  which  is  very  sad.  But I think you just knowing, just keeping that,  Sometimes it's a boom. Sometimes it's just, it can just be literally  like  just  a pulse.  Just keep  that going.  And  I  think  that just, yeah, that's  all you can do in  those moments.  So I, acknowledge the question and I think  there's  a  really  interesting  post and thread that I saw the  other day  that I  didn't step into  that  I  thought  about.  where  this person was saying, we should stop saying  everything for  a  reason. Sometimes  you  don't  want  to hear that.  And sometimes  things  are  really  shitty.  And and my response was, I think there's a  context for  both.  And  it's coming back  to what  we were  saying.  if  at  that  moment,  let's be personal and specific,  when  my father  had died,  And someone  had said,  Hey,  everything  for a reason,  Really?  Wow.  No, it's shit. It's really shitty. And it was  four  years ago  and  it's  still shitty,  but  you, we need to,  you  life  has  to  be, has  to have some  kind  of balance  to  it.  And  it  can't  always be  so  upbeat and so positive. You need those. The human condition needs those  moments of. of pain,  adversity.  They are  the,  they are  emotions that we have.  Shouldn't  deny them.  We should  learn from them. I think  we, and we, there's a tendency  that we  learn  more from  those  painful experiences than like the happy ones because we're just, hey, endorphins  are  kicking  in  or whatever.  But I  think there are lessons  to  be  learned  from painful experiences  and adversity.

**Ben Culpin**
Yeah.  No, thank you. Thank you for your honest answer. I  am conscious to,  as  this is something, a conversation I'm sharing in a public forum, want to make sure that it shows  all  the  ranges  of states of being, it could be easy to listen to you and just launched a book.  Life's good.  But  But it's not always  easy. And it's so important to embrace all of the emotions that you experience. They all have  a purpose.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah.

**Ben Culpin**
And  yeah  I, yeah, I think the only thing I would add there is,  to your point about the pulse, and sometimes it can be just a pulse, is the importance of  your And your own community and  how  that can also be a lifeline.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah.  Yeah,  I think I,  I  would,  yeah, would acknowledge that in the setup in your question you, mentioned that you didn't have a network, didn't  have  the support.  So  in that  context, I was  like,  if  you don't have those friends, you don't have that network, then you  literally  just  have  focus  on yourself.  And that's why all comes back  to  you.  Sure, we  can  rely  on, on, on others. And But if all else fails, only,  the constant  you have in  this life is  you.  And  I do think that  it is,  it is It is  important  to, as you say, express the full range  of  emotion. There's a very short piece,  I don't know if you've seen, Choices,  in  the  book.  I I think  I know of my head where  in the face  of death, divorce, and geographical  distance  from  children,  I choose  peace,  love and  kindness  because it's something that there desperately  sad moments that  I have  and pain  that  I  have  as  result  particularly  with distance where my children to, contact my children  live  in America,  they  live in America  with their mother.  That's  hard.  And, I'm  Happy, clappy, and Unicorn shitting rainbows all the time. Because some days really  awful.  hard.  But  it  is a day,  and  All the  clichés  come  out, but  you, you, you  need the darkness  to  the  light.  And you just keep going. Ha.

**Ben Culpin**
I have a question here in my little digital notebook that I've come back to now and again that I'd like to pose to you now and it's the following. How do you retake your  passion?  Have you ever lost your passion and what did you do to get it back?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
do you retake your passion? Can you expand on that a little bit? I think to, to use your example of  being,  no, I've got my thinking face on..

**Ben Culpin**
Yeah, no, I'm conscious of it, trying not to get triggered by your thinking face.  You talked about it in the 90s, having a period of quote unquote burnout, depression. In some ways, that is like the,  That is  the opposite of, having one, having passion, having a reason to get out of bed in the morning. I'm just wondering if there's any more edges to this discussion that we're having. If I bring in the word passion, this idea of getting it back, refinding your light, refinding your purpose.  How did you do it?  What  did you do  to  get  it back?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
For  context,  I  was off  work  for  almost a  year.  So the way that  I look at it  is that I almost  lost  a  year  of  my  life.  And  as a point, I didn't want to ever go  back to that  place,  which

**Ben Culpin**
is  where the

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
notion  of  self  care came in,  I think, before people used  the  self care.  The  language

**Ben Culpin**
around burnout  is  is

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
is incredible oh  self care, mental  health, super  important.  And  maybe  it's  good

**Ben Culpin**
to have these

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
shorthand descriptors, so  people

**Ben Culpin**
understand, but

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
there's  a  lot going on under beneath  the  the surface.  To come back to your que sorry,  sidebar.  come back to your question  though, I  I think that  those words, yeah, as, branding folks, we we use passion  and  a lot.  I think it's,  me those are really heavy, worthy words. And  I would say,  what  brings  you  joy?  What brings  you joy on a daily basis?  And again,  it's  like small.  small  moments  that add up  to something bigger. What are the things

**Ben Culpin**
that resonate with  you?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
So  things that  bring me joy  are natural,  quite often natural things  that I  see.  And  have a series like  a  little  bit  joy.  this week it was number 30, a  web.  you see a spider's Stop and look at that.  It's  amazing,

**Ben Culpin**
right?

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
one outside.  It's actually the, there's picture  that I

**Ben Culpin**
posted.  It's actually

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
spider's web outside

**Ben Culpin**
Is that  on the blue frame

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
It's  outside  the door.

**Ben Culpin**
I think I can see another spider's web.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
There's loads,  And I don't clean away because  spiders and they're natural.  But you look at that's one of nature's amazing architects doing their thing,  possibly  on a  daily basis.  And  you just stop and pause that brings you,  that  brings  me  joy.  I think there's too much pressure  on  people.  The thing  that  they do  between,  the  hours of  light and dark, it's 9 to Friday, which doesn't, traditional working from exist anymore. People put  much emphasis  on  that work  equals  purpose,  equals joy, equals, sorry, equals their mission,  their thing  that  they  have  to do.  do.  It's not. your life  comes first.  And I think just embracing those What are some of the things that I've  posted about in the past?  Like, when I'm in  supermarket, see  pile  of  fruit.  like

**Ben Culpin**
pile of

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
lemons.  Where do those lemons come from?  Look at how they're like  the

**Ben Culpin**
inconsistency of them.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
The  color, the tone,

**Ben Culpin**
the

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
hue.  Take a moment. That That

**Ben Culpin**
brings you  joy.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
I think coming back to your question  is  just  how did get

**Ben Culpin**
through

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
it?  is just finding those little  small  things  that  Resonate and brought me joy on daily basis. The first sip of a really good cup coffee,  that's a good thing.  that's a good thing.

**Ben Culpin**
Yeah, I think as I'm hearing what you're saying my, because we're sharing words here, my word is connection.  And joy  is a, is slightly further down the road. The connection,  to use  your example, to the object. Or the physicality of the environment, the color.  But for me it started  with  connection to  my  body.  To  the  somatic experience. To acknowledge, anxiety. What's causing the anxiety, what's under the anxiety.  And  in some instances being able  to  branch off into how is that changing my  mindset.  So connection for me I think is one of the fundamental first steps in retaking

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah.

**Ben Culpin**
passion.  At least it has  been for myself.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah.  When did you  lose  your passion?  then? Or,  have you lost your  passion  recently?  To rephrase it.

**Ben Culpin**
I would say that the last  eight years have presented numerous moments of  challenge.  To talk about your four pillars.  Death  of  my grandparents. Divorce of my own parents. The thing that everyone else has experienced. Which is a global pandemic.  Some  other things that are more recent that I would rather keep to myself at this moment in time. But every  moment  is a moment  where  I felt like I had a few inches taken off me.  And  it's accumulative.  And  And every time  it  takes a little bit more from you and hollows you out. And I'm conscious enough to go, Oh, it's me.  There's so much going on in the world right now, but everyone's suffering is relative. And so I would say of late, there's been numerous reasons for me to lose focus of my passion  and  connecting to myself and my body and my essence has been  the first  step.  in, in finding that. And one literal example of how it is starting to manifest and evolve is having this conversation with you. Having the courage to do that.  Because  I, I love having  these kind  of  conversations.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Thank you for those those examples and I  think  that  you hadn't mentioned it, I was going to say, is  that why you do the  podcast?  But  I  think  it's

**Ben Culpin**
a

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
difference  though  because  you're having  a  conversation  and  you and  I, in our  mission  to  find the perfect  cinnamon bun, cinnamon  roll,  we  walk and  talk,  right?  But

**Ben Culpin**
we're

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
not  recording  those conversations.  What  are you hoping to  gain  or share with these conversations  that  you're  having with people?  What's  in  it for you in  it for  viewer,  the  listener?

**Ben Culpin**
\I'm  doing this for myself first.  I've  had a few people who say, Hey, who's your target audience for  this?  Me?  If I find this interesting, maybe by de facto someone else might find this useful.  I want to create... A  a  quiet place for reflection that's safe and gentle and sensitive and open minded.  I  I think that there are not many places in the world digitally or in the real world that exists.  It's  a kind of space that I try to foster with my friendships and my relationships in my personal life.  And in work, to a certain degree.  But  this is just another way to try and do  that.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah.

**Ben Culpin**
And I hope, build up a body of knowledge  that  serves.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Yeah.  I  think  the  motivator, the  motivation for it.  I  think  I  love that.  Again,  we  all,  branding and strategy, it's who's your  target?  I

**Ben Culpin**
just

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
if you're not doing that you  see a  value in,  one  sees

**Ben Culpin**
a value

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
in,  wonder why you,  the motivation  for it  and  people  do things  for.  Revenue or  whatever.  But I love the goal of, that  the sensitivity, the quietness  or

**Ben Culpin**
whatever.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
There's I just, might have shared  this  with you  before,

**Ben Culpin**
there's

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
a good friend of mine who  I used to work here in,  Amsterdam.  And they now live between here and Ireland,  and they  have a  farm  in Ireland.  in Ireland. And  it's  called the  Quiet  Farm.  Have  I  told  you this?  Yeah.  And  and  I said, Oh,  the  quiet,  why  is  it called  the  quiet farm? Because  it  produces  silence.  That's  what  we make here,  silence.  And was like, oh.  he's  creative

**Ben Culpin**
and

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
yeah, all the rest of it. If you're listening, you know  he's,  are. Um, But I just, that, has resonated with me.  Just you need these spaces. think need  people  to.  To  talk  about  in  a calm, considered  way  and people want to talk about situations  which maybe haven't been so  good,  and  there's a  learning  from  it,  I think it's really important. And I think that's one of the, I may, that's one of the reasons why the book is called A Bad Hand

**Ben Culpin**
Played Well,

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
because  life isn't  great  all  time.  And  particularly working life a lot of people  isn't great.  But  you've  got to  it.  You've got to find your way  that situation.  And  it's on you, it's incumbent on It all starts with  you,  how

**Ben Culpin**
you show  up.

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
How much control how  much  energy  you put  in.  And  I  think that's yeah. I think that's a necessary conversation.  What you're doing,  I  think,  great.  And um, because I think there's a real people do want to have those people want to talk.  They  want  to  have these  conversations  and hopefully they want listen as well. Yeah,

**Ben Culpin**
it's so  nice  they want to  hear.  I'm really  I,  sitting here going, I could keep talking with this man, but I could also, I think this also feels like a really lovely moment to pause and just be grateful for the conversation we've had. We may even have another one of these at some point if you were  to be  up  for  it.  Absolutely  loved  this conversation. I'm so grateful for everything that you shared. I was going to ask you to introduce your book at the end here, but that felt like a very natural moment for you to talk  about  it.  Neil, let's let's call it a day today.\

**Neil Schambra Stevens**
Ben,  firstly thank you the invitation. It's been  to...  have a seated  meander.  not, It's not often that we do that because thing  is  walk  and  talk. I really appreciate the opportunity and your questions and you've shared great  things  and  really really enjoyed the chat and I think we should maybe put the  coffee  on again.  Yes, let's do  it. Thanks, Neil. Alright, thank you,